One thing I'm noticing here on Mastodon (mostly through observing experience of others, to be fair) is that there seems to be a point at which catering to people with, let's call it, overly-particular needs seems to embolden those people to foist those needs onto others and it devolves into a mess of opinions real fast.

One of the reasons Trader Joe's is successful is that they limit choices.

Do you really need to have two dozen varieties of peanut butter? Probably not. So they just stock a few. Gets people in-and-out very quickly, makes the stores smaller, and it's a very enjoyable experience for many despite being objectively quite limited.

Choice-overload is a real thing, and I think those steering this ship need to sit with that for a while.

@TechConnectify Isn't the point that those people can either make their own instance or move to one that's better when they find one? I haven't noticed this issue with people, but maybe that's because my own requirements were so broad; I wanted an instance with nice furries, I found several, one of them was for STEM furries, I work in a STEM field, so I chose the nice STEM furries because it filled my two requirements & had the bonus that the people on it work in positions I can relate to.

@TechConnectify Can i understand your scope of these " overly particular needs" to understand the nature of it?

@TechConnectify it also makes life much simpler and more pleasant for the people working in their stores. Easier to stock, easier to organise the stock, etc see Zeynep Ton’s brilliant research https://hbr.org/2017/01/how-4-retailers-became-best-places-to-work (also formed the inspiration for my frontline jobs startup, Breakroom.cc)

@TechConnectify Do you ever visit grocery stores that have *only* the house brand? Aldi in USA is what I'm thinking of, but maybe Whole Foods is a bit like that too.

The choices are simpler, but the brand I am used to is surely not there.

@pmcg Trader Joe's is basically that! I rarely shop at Aldi but I'm never one to be brand loyal.

I will happily buy the generic version of almost any product (I only have a few exceptions), and TJ's has a ton of variety when it comes to frozen foods.

But when you drill down to one specific food item, particularly commodity products like flour, sugar, butter, they'll have just a few choices. And gosh does it make shopping easy.

@edendestroyer So, Mastodon offers lots of tools for curating your experience. Content warnings, hashtags, etc.

You then run into a lot of folks who police others for not using those features "correctly" and it's a very abrasive experience.

Being chastised for sharing something on the internet just because you didn't do it exactly how Joe Particular wanted it is a really fast way to lose interest in a platform, and the hyper-customizability here, I think, attracts people like Joe Particular.

@TechConnectify @edendestroyer

Bear in mind they were here first, those tools exist for a reason, and that respectful, courteous use of the platform involves following these community established socially-acceptable practices and expectations.

I don't think it's unreasonable.

@topher @edendestroyer In general, I agree with this principle. But there are people being extremely unreasonable here.

What brought on this thought was the experience I just saw someone have for not bothering to tag the picture they shared as black-and-white.

If you expect people to operate like that, you're asking them to do chores. That's not gonna work.

@TechConnectify @edendestroyer

Yes, that does seem like two very different things. Was this example specific to a niche photography community or something to that effect?

@TechConnectify reminds me of Peter Griffin at the "Specific store" trying to buy nuts of an increasingly specific kind, ultimately finding out that they don't have any of the specific size. Then goes next door to the General store and "Do you sell stuff? - Yeah!"

@TechConnectify amused by this thread! I actually disagree with your point but people are so enjoying talking about Trader Joe's that it would be churlish to go back to it.

@TechConnectify There is actually a term for choice overload. Look into the "paradox of choice." Its fascinating stuff.

@topher @TechConnectify i think theyre referring to this instance:

httpes://federate.social/@mattblaze/110255584114823369

@edendestroyer @TechConnectify

If it is in fact a reference to this thread, yes, this seems to be in no way a matter of sensitive content or accessibility concerns or anything beyond someone's personal attitudes towards photography, which I don't feel any need to justify or defend.

Were this about the former, however, I am fully in support of adhering to respectful, established customs of the existing community here - which sounds like we both are in that regard.

@topher @edendestroyer Yes, that's precisely what I'm referring to.

And my broader point is that if Mastodon is to remain a place where this kind of person can thrive, it will probably stay niche.

I think there is a point at which you can offer too many controls, and unfortunately there are people who will not be able to see when their needs are excessive. It's going to make this platform tedious for anyone with a few thousand followers or more. In my opinion, to the point of abandonment.

@TechConnectify @topher Im still very confused on how providing accessibility features is "too many controls"

this whole thread feels so much of bad faith

@EddiKat I'm using Trader Joe's as an example of this as it's a well-known case study of this very phenomenon! It is legitimately a huge part of their success.

I could also compare Linux/Windows/MacOS in a similar vein but I won't because dear god

@TechConnectify @EddiKat actual user study (albeit from 2001) that looked at this phenomenon in the Gnome desktop, it makes for interesting reading:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060115115958/http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gup/ut1_report/customization_tasks.html

@fraggle @TechConnectify @EddiKat That study has interesting conclusions, but I'm not sure I agree with the general theme of "Users couldn't figure this out, so we shouldn't do that".

The approach seems to be to make Gnome so feature-limited that it's difficult to do the wrong thing, even accidentally.

That actually explains why Gnome looks how it does today - and also why a lot of people refuse to use it. If you disagree with it's approach, your only alternative is something other than Gnome.

@davidga @TechConnectify @EddiKat well if you think about it, that's a perfectly valid answer to give. "A desktop that anyone is able to use" doesn't necessarily mean "a desktop that satisfies everyone's desires". It's not like Linux has a lack of alternative desktops you can try instead

@fraggle @davidga @EddiKat yeah, this is kinda the whole thing I'm seeing here.

Mastodon lets you have an incredibly well-tailored experience which will often have friction with the broader "Just Wants to Post Stuff" population.

If the Just Wants to Post Stuff population keeps having run-ins with the "excuse me, but I have a filter set up that only works if you always label posts about snails with hashtag slimetime" or whatever... well they'll just leave.

@TechConnectify I think the nature of correctness could be warranted towards people who have vision issues (AltText) or are trauma-sensitive and may wish to have a safe online space (CW). Other than that sure, its hard to first get used to the tools and using them to the best of our abilities but the due consideration to these groups of people is warranted.

@edendestroyer Please understand that I'm not framing Joe Particular as a person affected by trauma or the like.

I mean a weird, hyper-particular ask that nobody could reasonably expect. I see this a lot - largely to do with people wanting others to categorize their posts for them.

@TechConnectify I wish this was communicated well, as your post feels inconsiderate towards a legitimate, empathatic culture

@edendestroyer This is all made worse by this very thing! Nobody will ever be able to perfectly predict how people react to what they post.

The trouble is, I'm seeing a lot of people emboldened to assert quite frankly pedantic requirements on others, and it's driving them away from the platform.

If you're expecting the entire world to behave in a way that's conducive to your very-particular filters, you're going to be disappointed.

@TechConnectify i never said you can ever get it "perfect". But getting feedback from the people who it is meant to be for is very helpful in the process. For the people, by the people.

@edendestroyer I'm glad you're not burned out by that, but it's exhausting.

Imagine sharing a photo you took and someone's upset because you didn't tag it as a black-and-white photo.

That happened.

@TechConnectify But that sort of thinking doesn’t let you play auctioneer with slotting fees. The very act of showing you too many options is a money maker.

@edendestroyer @topher First, I don't mean to be narrowing-in on those features specifically. They're just what I think most people are familiar with.

Even just the fracturing of instances and rules for interacting between them presents countless opportunities for stumbling into a situation in which you're suddenly in a social faux-pas.

I certainly want to navigate the social internet as tactfully as I can... but I'm finding more and more people getting chastised for tiny infractions.

@edendestroyer @topher People are more than welcome to establish spaces with rules. And honestly, I think that's really cool and healthy! Mastodon has done a lot to make those spaces available.

But the flipside is that those spaces may not be where people want to be. If you start to feel like a post on Mastodon is stepping into a minefield, you're probably gonna stop posting so much.

That's really all I'm trying to get at, here.

@TechConnectify @edendestroyer

Agree. I make every effort to accommodate the former of my two categories, and edit posts to add a CW or tag if something is brought to my attention, in a personal interest to be a good, respectful user here.

As for the second, I've fortunately not personally run into any substantial issues. Were it a significant, widely agreed and expected practice within a specific niche community (e.g. infosec), I would also happily adjust as necessary, (though within reason)

@topher @edendestroyer Right. I haven't been posting for a while, I've just been observing.

I've noticed several people start finding this too much to handle. And to make matters worse, suggestions for how to improve the platform are often shouted-down as "against the spirit" or whatever.

Ultimately, too many people want Mastodon to be too many things. And I think that trying to cater to all of them will always keep this place niche.

And maybe that's OK! But it's something to be mindful of.

@TechConnectify @EddiKat Trader Joe's only works because you trust their brand will be high quality. If there was no choice and it was low quality it would have failed by now. So I'd say it's both limited choices but the ones there are are quality.

@NoHomers @EddiKat that's very true! And the same would happen for a store that offered many many choices, but none were of good quality.

As with many things in life, it's about striking the right balance.

Right now, I'm not sure Mastodon/fedi more broadly has got it.

@TechConnectify I thought trader Joe's was just trying to save cost, while marketing it as a benefit to customers.

@jeffeb3 no, there are case studies on this very thing. It's a deliberate strategy, and profit per square foot of retail space is much higher for them than your average grocer.

A lot of people view shopping as a chore, and choice paralysis is one of the reasons. TJ's, perhaps partly by accident, discovered a great way to alleviate that. Not everyone likes their stores or products, but for those that do - it's a perfect match

@TechConnectify @EddiKat

But Trader Joes sucks, one can't even buy chocolate covered peanuts and what good is that to me, someone allergic to tree nuts.

So instead of too many chocolate covered nut options, I get zero.

Fewer choices are no bloody good if they simply promote inaccessibility to various minorities.

@doctormo @EddiKat Trader Joe's sucks /for you/ and, perhaps, people with the same concerns and needs. I imagine many of them, though, find plenty of other products that they enjoy.

Be at peace that some things work better for some and worse for others.

@TechConnectify Who gets to choose what brands get picked? What standards make that decision? Are they public? How do we know someone didn't get paid, using our purchasing power as the collateral?

@objectinspace Virtually everything in Trader Joe's is a house-brand product.

@TechConnectify

TJ peanut butter is probably a bad example, at least if its organic. I must prefer the Stop & Shop organic pb because it doesn't have the oil slick.

Their dairy all seems to come from California and has like 1 week left on the Use By date.

@TechConnectify yes - but on the other hand someone like me who has some of those particular needs for mental health reasons appreciates those who participate in the group effort to make it a community I can be a part of - so in turn I expend effort for to meet the needs of others, even if I don’t fully get it so that they can use it to. In the end we all have a pretty great time.

I know that people can turn anything into a chance to be a dick, however:

This isn’t twitter - thankfully, you have to pause for thought more before you post and anyone who finds the above too much of a burden or finds the tone of people who have come here because they want to exist in a space that isn’t triggering - especially if they’re a minority that is currently being attacked and having their rights ripped away can, frankly, fuck off

That mass of opinions is people having an active conversation about what those norms and rules should be - people can be dicks but the alternative is worse

@TechConnectify @pmcg Isn't Trader Joe owned by Aldi Nord (while Aldi in the US is Aldi Süd)?

@TechConnectify The most successful supermarket chain in Spain (Mercadona) is like that but taken to the extreme: they only carry their house brand except for very very few products (like Coca-Cola). Most people (me included) don't trust brand names, just want to buy their milk/toothpaste/whatever and get on with their lives.

@jeffeb3 just to give an example, if I have a list and stick to it, I can be in and out of TJ's in 5 minutes.

Even if I want to wander the store and look at all of their offerings, it takes perhaps 20 minutes. I don't know how you could spend a half hour at my local Trader Joe's.

That sort of turn around is great for them, and a lot of customers (including me) appreciate the speed.

Sadly, they are missing just a few staples so they can't be my only store...

@TechConnectify you just reminded me of the pain that was choosing a washing machine a month ago

@TechConnectify having just returned from TJ's, that's exactly why I shop there

@topher @edendestroyer I mean, probably the person asking is in such communities, but the person posting definitely wasn't doing so for the benefit of that community.

@TechConnectify No, happiness and confidence is greatly improved by restricting choice. https://www.ted.com/talks/malcolm_gladwell_choice_happiness_and_spaghetti_sauce

@TechConnectify you're thinking of success in terms of economics. Mastodon is a free/libre open source project. Its definition of success is different. Its goal is not to gather as many users as possible to have enough user data to be profitable. Its goal is to be useful and beneficial to its users.

@TechConnectify I agree. I often go there because walking a lot is hard for me and I can manage the size better.

@TechConnectify The success of Trader Joe’s doesn’t mean there isn’t a genuine need for those other stores. People have a variety of preferences and dietary requirements. I am fortunate that Keto fads mean that moderate-sized stores and chains like Giant Eagle carry low sugar-low carb options that are a better match for my T1D needs. Something seemingly as trivial as only 2 varieties of peanut butter, would probably mean I simply wouldn’t get to have convenient peanut butter. (1/3)

@TechConnectify I know this is about choices, but all I can think of is "Man I want a Trader Joes near me, I once had one of these little pizzas with feta cheese and olives on it from there, and I am sad about them now"

@TechConnectify
Trader Joes will only put a store in certain communities. I get why, but still, I'm in a big enough city for them, but they won't come here.
@doctormo @EddiKat

@TechConnectify Frankly, that's part of why I created this instance. It's invite-only (read: me and a few friends use it) and the golden rule is just "don't be a fuckhat/make extra, unnecessary work for me".

I love that we can have this private island away from the disk horse.

@pmcg @TechConnectify
It makes me laugh when you see those “I moved to Germany but why don’t shops have the same choice as the US” YouTube videos.
In Europe, the choice is often between the biggest of all (say) Cornflake brands and the stores own-brand one … beyond a certain point, choice leads to unhappiness.
Also, if I want good bread, I’m going to the boulangerie, not the warehouse.

@TechConnectify Opinions, on the internet?

@TechConnectify Mastodon developers are definitely aware that like... picking a server is the biggest hard choice, and people are asked to make it way before they know what that choice means for them. I think the best case is to just get people on a server... any server... and then let them move elsewhere later if they want.

@TechConnectify Costco, famously, as well

@b_cavello Well, except their stores aren't exactly well-known for being small and easy-to-navigate :)

@TechConnectify Probably for the best. Down that road exists only pain.

@TechConnectify what do you mean, my hyper-specific Linux based workflow is the *only real way* to use a computer. The rest of you clearly are sheep. 😜

@TechConnectify I love you, man, but if you're referring to alt-text? It's useful for a lot of people, and not just the partially-sighted.

If it's very specific content warnings, then, yeah, they can be a little demanding.

Looking forward to the vid when I watch the TVs this evening :)

@TechConnectify @edendestroyer

Clearly there are two drastically different sets of expectations in play:

one being to preserve this as a *safe* place for people to visit and belong, as it pertains to offensive or sensitive subject matter or content that could be potentially dangerous for those with accessibility needs

and the other being related to non-critical curation and organisation preferences, but not threatening or dangerous to anyone.

@TechConnectify 100% agree. I've tried to convince several people to come here but they keep getting overwhelmed. I think it's fine to cater to those who have special needs, but there needs to be a default and non-default option. Like simple and advanced settings.

@TechConnectify not to mention their own branded items… I stock up whenever we’re down south. 🤤

@TechConnectify this is honestly one of my favorite things about shopping at Aldi lol

@TechConnectify ahh, good point. (I actually tend to find the layout of Trader Joe’s confusing, but maybe if I went more frequently, that wouldn’t be the case 😅)

@b_cavello They definitely vary from location-to-location quite a bit, but once you go to the same one a few times I think you get a good sense of where everything is.

You can basically cover my store's entire footprint with five aisle-laps, but it's an older and small location.

@TechConnectify Agreed.

@TechConnectify I have only been to those stores a few times but I reckon I could get used to it. I don't quite follow your analogy toward Mastodon, but it is interesting to muse about it.

@TechConnectify @objectinspace That's because they are actually Aldi behind the scenes, right? (just the other half of Aldi)

@TechConnectify
just like the other place, then, only... different people?

@TechConnectify @edendestroyer

It's both good and bad, in different ways.

It can be a bit higher barrier to entry and slightly more demanding to use, but as an alternative to a somewhat free-for-all, centralised platform with vague terms of use and definitions of what constitutes harassment or other unacceptable content, which they ultimately solely control and can spontaneously change, and moderation is left entirely up to them based on user reports, I'll say I strongly prefer this approach

@TechConnectify The people steering the ship set it up to cater to the groups traditionally ignored by traditional social media, including the disabled and the neurodivergent.

@TechConnectify That's why I pretty much only shop at Aldi's anymore.

@TechConnectify

@TechConnectify

Honestly, I think being intentionally vague to try not to get people mad will just make *more* people mad. 😆

@TechConnectify INteresting--so they're the Kaiser Permanente of grocery stores?

@TechConnectify @topher @edendestroyer then that's just a common or garden troll :(

@TechConnectify @pmcg You've read the crazy history of Aldi and Trader Joe's, right?

@TechConnectify I'm so stoked I'm moving to a place in walking distance after two years cold turkey. It's also the best place to shop while single

@TechConnectify I know that happened, but i also see it being someone abusing a culture or trolling it, i fail to see that person being part of the people this was made for.

@RebekahWSD I fucking love TJ's and proximity to one was a significitant factor in my house hunting

@TechConnectify
I'll second this observation, and add that, at some point, connections to other people on mastodon are either curated consciously for the purpose of deciding whose preferences the participant is willing to cater to, or curated passively/reactively, in response to call-outs.

In the second, it ends up being more work overall to try to constantly respond to the Cancellation of The Day

@TechConnectify @edendestroyer

Interesting. I agree there's certainly a point where it becomes absurd. If it's not a matter involving something offensive, triggering or sensitive in that regard, or abusive of hashtags or mentions, there's a certain point where the solution would seem to be to simply not follow that person.

*or accessibility-related, e.g. strobing lights in a gif

@TechConnectify I've always found the toothpaste aisle in most supermarkets baffling. I think Colgate only do this so they can dominate the shelf space

@TechConnectify That might be one of the reasons I like the "Little Dillons" near my house so much (besides the fact that it is near my house)

@TechConnectify Hahaha. Welcome to Literally Every Open-Source Project Ever™ 😁

@TechConnectify please can you use hashtag #noticing when describing things you have noticed so they can be filtered. thanks

@TechConnectify @edendestroyer

I agree. The reply I was drafting as you posted this is relevant and largely in agreement to this sentiment.

@TechConnectify @EddiKat

I would, but they keep building the damn things on the most useful bits of land.

Besides, i was being metaphorical with an actual example and I'm actually adverse to ideas which are critical of our collective responsibility to be thoughtful for each other. /for me/ i think it is unwise of us to blindly blunder about with such a tyrannical libertarianism, not when a little humanity has never been so cheap.

@TechConnectify

I really appreciate you "leaning in," engaging with the community, and taking the time to explain your perspective on this thread.
I know it must be tiring, but I think it will bear a lot of fruit.

Cheers 🍻

@TechConnectify @objectinspace there is a fun little subculture of people who try to work out who actually manufactures TJs house brand items. Sometimes you can tell by taste/texture/looks, or packaging or by comparing nutritional info. It's a little mystery

@TechConnectify @fraggle @davidga @EddiKat one element that distinguishes it from e.g. heavy customization in a desktop ui is that sophisticated customization in a communication medium also also brings with it semiotic significance. Just as choosing a word instead of another (even synonymous) word impacts the meaning of a spoken sentence, so does using or refraining from using a given feature come to have meaning and values attached to it on a platform like the fediverse.

@TechConnectify @RebekahWSD good thing you didn't live where I am... the TJs... moved a good bit aways, heh. from 5 min to 20 min away.

And the onboarding here has definitely been a point of contention. I love the idea of the fediverse but you still need good design/marketing for success.

@TechConnectify @topher @edendestroyer If it’s a rule on a closed server or a server with striclyt enforced and clearly defined rules, sure. But when people project that preference to the fediverse at large, it’s ridiculous.

It’s even more ridiculous when they compare people having different preferences to “genocide” (which happened a few times a few months ago!)

@TechConnectify There are some within the state, but none nearby, and the closest suffers from their parking lot problems.

One day. Maybe one day they'll move into the abandoned deli we use to have on our street, and I can once again walk to groceries instead of having to drive!