Oh my gosh I just figured it out.

Okay, all you open source evangelist people: your knee-jerk reaction to come at people who are talking about a problem with whatever commercial software they use and suggest Your Favorite Alternatives™ is exactly like saying "why don't you just buy a house?" to someone complaining about their landlord.

EDIT: There's more than one post here. Pick apart the analogy if you will but... beware you'll be proving the point.

@TechConnectify but here, the house is free!

@krafting don't.

@TechConnectify maybe this and also a little of "why don't you just build your own house?”

@DoubleA you're right, that's more like it

Actually, to borrow from @DoubleA, it's worse than that.

It's like talking to someone who is in a crappy apartment as though they have the agency and skills to stake out a plot of land and build their own home.

You have to be at peace with the fact that some people just want to exist and not worry about so many things. And they still have a right to complain about their situation.

@TechConnectify @krafting Listen, I get what you're saying - it's bad advice, saying "just use open source" is not helpful. But the analogy is pretty poor.

@luskebux @krafting only if you want to nitpick and deliberately miss the point.

@Reil it really do be like that. All the time.

@TechConnectify To me, FOSS is the "vegan" of computers. Like, sure, it's better for society and it's easy to argue that it's a more ethical choice, but often you're sacrificing quality and convenience, and the die-hard followers can be really self-righteous and annoying.

@AcornSquashbuckler and they desperately need you to know that about themselves.

Personally, I aim for moderation in both.

@TechConnectify @DoubleA Shout out to the home assistant project for actively trying to acknowledge and address these kinds of issues! It makes them a shining star in my opinion, not that they get everything perfect, but they see and acknowledge this problem in a way other projects refuse to

@blooper98 @DoubleA that's good to know. I may in fact begin dabbling in it as Smartthings continues to degrade.

Hot take though: I would happily pay $5 a month for Smartthings. I would actually like them to create an infrastructure that pays smart people to work through problems, and would happily pay a subscription fee to improve the product to that end.

Alas, they (probably rightfully) view that as a bridge too far and the situation now is very precarious.

@TechConnectify @DoubleA I get that but I disagree.

Someone else point out "but the house is free" tongue in cheek but they're right.

One one had you've paying for for software, and getting a terrible experience for the benefit of using the same thing every one else is.

On the other, you've got _free_ software, also has mixed experiences, but isn't used by the majority of people but generally has a lot of documentation and discussion online.

@neclimdul @DoubleA it's not actually free though. You are either using a bunch of people's labor without paying them anything, which okay. Sit with that for a bit.

Or you're going to contribute to the project yourself in which case you are paying with your skills and time.

I don't know what exactly it is with the free and open source software movement, but there's a lot of self-sufficiency mindset that honestly seems to go against society.

@neclimdul @DoubleA and I'm not kidding when I say that. Society functions because of specialization in skills and divisions of labor.

Yeah, I don't exactly like a corporation having a huge amount of power and influence. It's easy to go too far.

But it's also not wrong to pay for things to get services in return. Because the people doing that work do in fact deserve pay, and a decent living to boot.

The real issue, as ever, is power structures. Not the nuts and bolts of it.

@TechConnectify @DoubleA that is precisely home assistants model with Nabu Casa

@blooper98 I could probably look this up so excuse me for just asking, but am I right in presuming that this is something like a voluntary patreon for the project?

Because that's really cool. That's literally how I fund my work, and I think more places should experiment with no paywalls but voluntary contributions.

@TechConnectify @DoubleA Sorry, that analogy is still very poor. I get that Open Source still has that image of bad UI/UX, and sure, sometimes that's the case. But there are so many open applications, which are very well designed and used professionally, that I think it's just very small minded to generalize them all as finicky and unusable.

If you need a few examples for open software which is perfectly usable without hassle: Audacity, VLC, Firefox, Thunderbird, Blender, 7-zip, Notepad++

@nyankas wow you are aggressively missing the point!

Also, nowhere did I make any comment on the usability of free and open source software. You put that in your post by yourself.

This is about how people talk to other people. And you are doing it right now.

The replies here are so incredibly fascinating.

Half of you understand what I'm saying.

The other half are missing the point, aggressively. Sometimes it seems willful!

So. To make this explicitly clear: I'm not making any comment about any software here. I've said nothing about which is better or worse. I've not made any value judgment on the software people choose to use.

This is about how you talk to other people.

@TechConnectify I always have to put in disclaimers when asking as question on Mastodon, otherwise I will get tons of replies that are either "I googled this and found this" or "I've never used used that buy a friend of my 3rd cousin has used it once, so their expert advice is..."

@thomasfuchs I've noticed, and started doing the same. It does help, or at least it did that one time

@TechConnectify It's almost like this platform attracts large numbers of socially awkward people (I'm not excluding myself from this, but I try not be a replyguy).

@thomasfuchs and to be honest, I think my presence here results in a lot of clashes. I really like to learn how things work, but my nuts and bolts level of understanding with software is quite poor. That's why I never touch on computers in my videos, I actively kind of hate them.

Me simply being here is another signal to the contrary, so expectations are misaligned a lot.

@rl_dane and the whole point of this post, really, is to get people to sit with when advocacy is appropriate before starting it up.

Because people really overdo it here. Every post is interpreted as a cry for help for someone, and it is so irritating.

It hurts the movement, it does not help it. I'm telling you this from a place of respect for the movement itself, not antagonistically.

@TechConnectify the problem i think is, that the comparison is kinda bad. In some cases it's not hard to switch to a foss alternative. But people are still hostile and don't want to, even though it's objectivly better.
Convincing people of the truth is hard, they don't want to accept it. They continue to use proprietary software, drive gas cars, eat meat, use gas for heating instead of heat pumps, use detergent packs...

@TechConnectify @thomasfuchs your videos are a loud "one of us" signal ("us"=nerds). Maybe folks are assuming it is a commutative property, and your ability to figure out all the stuff you figure out for the videos means you want to do the same with computers. Not excusing it, of course, this place has some sharp edges, and we'd all be better off with a little more empathy and meeting folks where they are. Also, hating computers is normal, even (especially) for those of us who love them.

@joshix @TechConnectify It's not about what's "true" so much as it's about what already works for other people, and not seeing why to switch if they aren't seeking to.

The whole point being made here is, humans are habit-driven beings and just want to do the things they are used to!

And it's not just about FOSS here: do you really expect someone to switch from Premiere to Davinci Resolve overnight? No, because that's a shit ton of muscle memory getting tossed out.

Let people be comfy.

@ThatOneSeong @joshix and what I think you (joshix) are missing here is the importance of agency.

The people that are annoying here assume everybody has their skills. That's actually why I went to the buying a house analogy: that is hard to do even if you are able, and many people literally cannot.

Would their life improve if they owned their own home? Probably! Then they're not beholden to a landlord.

But are they actually able to do that? Is that actually the right choice for them?

@ThatOneSeong @joshix like, one could argue. Landlords should not exist. And I know there's a lot of people who actually think that's the case!

But I also know people who are very uncomfortable with the idea of maintaining their home, or maybe don't have the skills. Or the time to develop those skills. For them, renting is a decent choice. And even in a world where renting happens without impulses of capitalism, someone needs to be paid to do that work. And it happens through the rent.

@cy @BalooUriza oh look, one of these!

@illionas @TechConnectify @DoubleA as a power user running linux as a primary OS for over 20 years, I don't think I've complied a program outside of FLOSS development in 20 years. 🤷

@illionas @neclimdul @DoubleA meanwhile, I'm sitting here watching you people talk about steps I never take because I run windows and things come as executables and I push the buttons on the screen and things work.

Could I learn these skills? Absolutely! Sure ain't worth my time though

@TechConnectify One key piece of subtext you might be missing here: When I suggest OpenSource alternatives to people I do that fully aware that most of them will never even look at them. Most of the time that's not my intention. Most of the time I am actually saying "leave me alone with your software problems". Because that's always the knee-jerk reaction of people when I tell them I work in IT. It's a defense mechanism against involuntary tech support.

@tiberiustribun well wait a minute. The easiest way to not get involved with someone else's problems... is to not get involved with someone else's problems.

If that is your intention, then you need to ignore things. Not join in the conversation.

@TechConnectify @illionas @neclimdul @DoubleA Compiling is generally a last resort for installation; usually you just get something from the package manager

[Definitions]
Compiling = asking your computer to translate human-readable code into machine code, so that it can be executed. Usually only used for niche programs that don’t have a pre-compiled binary for whatever reason
Not exclusive to Linux

Package manager = centralized way to install applications; usually [on non-poweruser distros] comes as a combo of a command-line tool with a GUI frontend

@tetra @neclimdul @illionas you do realize this is not helping me, right?

Like, first of all, I'm not asking for help. I could look these things up myself. But my point is I'm never going to put myself in a situation where I need to look this stuff up. I don't want that.

Appreciate the content warning, but this is exactly the stuff I'm talking about. I don't know how to help folks help themselves here.

@TechConnectify I'm not going to look at your replies but this post seems like one hell of a Sea Lion magnet, if you haven’t had enough of them already :D

https://wondermark.com/1k62/

@mattgrayyes oh yeah I know about sealioning. I do indeed get that a lot!

BTW, really enjoyed the pyrotechnics vid! Great stuff.

@TechConnectify FWIW. when I read your post I thought: "cool. didn't know that symbol exists. TIL" and went on with my day. Did I post a snarky reply? no, because ... why? I believe there is a silent majority here that acts similarly.

@gcspitfire oh, don't get me wrong, I know that silent majority is there.

There are just technical and structural reasons this platform makes that hard to appreciate. And, if I'm being honest, the demographic of the people here also makes it harder.

@TechConnectify @neclimdul @illionas I find it interesting that this is your reaction to someone posting a mostly apathetic explanation of terminology that you don’t care to look up
I understand feeling a minor ping of annoyance, but nothing that would prompt a multi-line response with this tone

@tetra look, I'm going to say this is nicely as I can. I'm genuinely not trying to be snarky or rude here:

In general, people need to resist the urge to be helpful. I know that that will feel very strange and you probably think I'm some sort of an ingrate for not wanting that.

But think of it from my position. I did not ask a question. My notifications get full from people who are assuming I need or want help with something.

@tetra and that is, as a matter of fact, the entire crux of my original post.

People here just love to demonstrate their knowledge of things. They also love to evangelize. To the point of outright irritation.

This, right here, is a big thing that pushes people away from the fediverse. Please believe me when I say that because it is the truth both for me and others.

@TechConnectify The reason why isn't because people are wilfully ignoring your point, but that your point is only kinda correct. Sure, many open source projects are unpolished, but also many open source projects are funded by corporations, and are largely indistinguishable from paid software except for the monetisation model. Eg. companies often offer open source software but with paid support.

Because of that, you're lumping way too much into one stereotype; sometimes skills aren't needed.

@qinjuehang hey man. Maybe try rereading the post you are replying to and listen to what I'm telling you it is about and what it is not about.

You're making a lot of assumptions and acting upon them in this reply.

@TechConnectify aggressively “helpful” tech repliers are def annoying. Like missionaries trying to convert you to their way. Tho I’m sorry to say your videos have inspired its own minor league of evangelists. On social media, if someone complains about dishwashers or heat pumps, I see at least one replier mention tech connections. It’s not at the level of FOSS sealioning…yet.

@ilovecomputers oh. oh no.

@TechConnectify No it isn't. It's like offering a free apartment to someone who lives under a shifty expensive landlord.

@shram86 if you haven't read the other posts of mine (literally I have no idea how the fediverse treats threading at this point) I would suggest you do so.

Fixating on the technicalities in this analogy is to miss the point so hard that you don't realize you're reinforcing it.

@TechConnectify You made a pretty clear analogy about open source software being akin to home ownership, requiring skills.

All I'm saying is that this analogy is (perhaps?) often true, but also many times quite silly. People will bristle at that.

Is your analogy true if you suggest Telegram to someone frustrated with Meta? I chat with my aged family on Telegram all the time, because it's just common in my part of the world. The problem is you say 'open source', which is too diverse a category.

@qinjuehang again. You are fixating on a technical thing about the analogy and not what the analogy intends to demonstrate.

And you are also doing the thing the analogy is intending to demonstrate! Do you see this?

@qinjuehang almost no analogies are perfect! Like, woe is me if I'm going to have to figure out how to make every analogy I make exactly technically perfect.

By fixating on the ways you think the analogy fails, you aren't engaging with the point of the analogy at all.

A lot of people here do this and my goodness is it irritating. The literal definition of well actually.

@TechConnectify

Thank you for enlighten us how you successfully use your computer.

I just fail to see how your obviously extremely limited experience with complex systems qualifies you for your broad statements concerning open source software and it's advocates. Most FOSS people give a rat's ass about the OS you're running or the problems you have while pushing buttons.

They just refuse your whining for free support for something they have zero interest in.

@illionas @neclimdul @DoubleA

@robertmx oh look, one of these!

@TechConnectify @qinjuehang I’m going to “well actually” you by saying that, without quotation marks, the end is difficult to read [for me, at least]

@tetra @qinjuehang 🤦‍♀️

@TechConnectify I think it goes both ways, you are also refusing to understand why people are annoyed by what you're saying!

It's like saying 'all vegetables are disgusting because I had broccoli and it was gross'. If you are complaining specifically about software evangelism, then do so. If you are complaining about complicated recommendations like NextCloud, do so. The problem is that you don't really know what you are criticising, so you literally criticised the wrong thing.

@qinjuehang I can understand your position. I usually think pretty hard about how I phrase things to ensure I don't get misinterpreted.

But here, even if you think I have a poor understanding of the current landscape of FOSS software, it's not relevant. At best, I exaggerated by implying that people have to develop the same magnitude of skill set in building a home. That is what we call hyperbole.

And boy did I never think it was going to set this trap up.

@TechConnectify Hey, many of us probably aren't neurotypical. Blame yourself for attracting the STEM nerd crowd 😉

Not speaking for everyone, but this won't be the first or last time today I misinterpret someone's words, probably.

@qinjuehang This is sincere advice:

If you think you might be misinterpreting something, just don't leave a reply. You don't need to engage.

I have found it best to assume in good faith that people are being sincere. And particularly with my last post, where I made it explicit what I was intending to say, I would have thought that would have covered it.

@qinjuehang I'm going to quote They Might Be Giants:

"Let the wrong be wrong. Would it be so bad?"

There are obvious times where people deserve pushback. And I know it's harder for some folks to find that line. But trust me when I say most of the time? What you perceive as wrong probably doesn't matter.

@TechConnectify @DoubleA Louis Rossmann did a youtube video about piracy and customer expectations recently and said (I paraphrase): "I pay you money to provide me a service, and if something between what I paid for and what I get mismatches, that's your fault" (tl;dr: he paid netflix for 4k, which is a premium package. something somewhere was incompatible, and they only delivered 1080). His complaint was replied with crap like "well, you should know that only gold frombulated cables using version 69 of the HDMI spec are the only legitimate means of watching 420k streaming".

This has resonated hard, along with what you said here, to me. One should not need to become an expert in a field in order to become a consumer. In fact, the point of being a consumer of a product is that you are _explicitly_ relying on an expert to make hard decisions for you.

I've been trying to upgrade my home network to support multiple access points, and the best resources I've found for understanding the different implementation architectures between an "all in one" router/modem/wifi device and individual components is the first few chapters of a college-level network administration certification course... It's tiring.

@b33fpebble oh dear, yes, anytime I needed to get into the weeds of networking crap it was exhausting.

Specifically the distinction between configuration of access points and routers. Whatever the heck that was.

The simplest solution when I ran into that need was just to get the Google Wi-Fi system. There's a whole bunch of things I don't like about that, but it works out of the box and that is WAY more valuable to me than whatever subnet mask dns forwarding packet mumbo jumbo.

@TechConnectify
Your reply section seems just full of "umm, ackchyually..." types of people. In this case it's kinda ironic 🫠

@ThaMunsta innit?

@TechConnectify I hadn't experienced what you have been discussing, until today, when I made the mistake of talking about LLMs and HOLY SHIT can these fuckers not read and understand any criticism of their pet projects. They've been all up in my mentions today and I just 🙄 every time.

@hardly_ted thank you, thank you, thank you thank you for writing this post.

Like, obviously I don't wish this on anyone. But I'm glad to know I'm not alone.

@rl_dane @jztusk

If I may, I think the disconnect you are experiencing comes from a disconnect in values.

For one, some folks are not going to interpret "freedom" the way you are projecting it here. I'm honestly not even sure that I do.

And, when there is a misalignment there, the proselytizing that you're doing feels judgmental from the other side. That pushes people away, it does not bring them in.

@rl_dane @jztusk especially, when we bring in the context of Mastodon, when they are told features they miss from commercial platforms shouldn't be implemented here or that there's no space for them.

Why do you think that has been so irritating to me? I get this sense that if I don't outright reject everything about the commercial platforms, I have no business here. And to be honest, I'm getting that sense from you.

Most people don't want to be around others like that. Simple as that.

@rl_dane @jztusk Don't give up - but also maybe change your framework, here.

Let me ask you this: how much interrogation have you done into the *why* of the latest uncomfortable trends? Why is the world getting fashy all of a sudden?

My answer would be that those behind the fash have figured out how to manipulate people. They are able to identify extremely powerful arguments and implement them with precision.

You and I know they're not being honest when they do this. Their audience doesn't.

@rl_dane @jztusk To be honest, the last 15 years of so of "these evil people are being manipulative: let's fight them by throwing charts and facts in front of people!" have been exhausting.

You can lead a horse to water, and all that.

The problem as I see it is that people who believe themselves to be righteous are hesitant to engage in tactical behavior. But that's what you need to be doing: identifying arguments that work and leaning into those. You need to help others see it your way.

@rl_dane @jztusk And you can do this honestly!

That's what I think gets missed a lot: terrible people craft arguments which are based on lies. They are /tricking/ people into voting for them by leveraging fear.

You can apply those same kinds of leverage with truthful, earnest arguments aligned with your beliefs without being deceitful. And you should!

@rl_dane @TechConnectify

Hey, thanks for listening openly, and I very much appreciate this reply of yours.

And, to be clear and honest, I judge people. All the time. And often not kindly. But the judging I'm talking about here is my emotional reaction. It needn't dictate my responses to people.

So I remember that we're all fallible humans, and I shrug my shoulders, and try my best to respond with sympathy. (I don't always have the energy for that, or succeed, but it's my goal.)

@jztusk @rl_dane I'll cosign on this.

Also - appreciate you mentioning a mindset of service. I think it would do the world a whole lot of good if everyone had to work in the hospitality industry for a year or two. I know it changed me for the better.

@TechConnectify I didn't know that housing was free and moving as easy as lifting a finger... silly me 🤷‍♀️

@qweertz Hey, maybe this is a Fedi thing, but please read through each of my posts.

A whole lotta people are picking out the buzzwords in the analogy rather than engaging with its point.

@TechConnectify I did read it, fully. Tho the tone of my first comment stems from me getting riled up easily. I basically perceived it as an ignorant attack (changed my view like 5 mins later)

It's just that I think you misunderstand the point of proprietary software: to make money and/or limit it's users freedom. If you need help with it you should get commercial support, that's kinda the whole point.

The thing with free/libre software is that it equates to a person telling you about a passionate cooperative housing project with a step by step handbook and low barrier of entry.
They went through it and now live in a wonderful community where the software they use was made by and for the community and it's use cases and left heartless products behind them

I kinda lost my train of thought so I'll end with this: some ppl are reacting the way they are, bc to them it seems like you fell down, are crying for help, but rejecting and shunning them for their offer to help you up (in their own way) at the same time

@qweertz I mean, it's probably gonna sting because I AM being critical of the movement's most prolific proselytizers. I've finally put my finger on what bothers me so much and it really is what I'm describing.

Yes, I know there are many easier options out there. But the fact of the matter is they're not right for everyone - and even if they are, some people don't want to go through the switching costs.

All you have to do is let them be - not take it as an opportunity to grandstand.

@qweertz Because, sincerely, that's what this "help" feels like. In nearly all cases.

Maybe a different analogy would help: I buy a bag of potatoes from the store that turn out to be moldy. I post about it On Here.

Here's what I'm expecting: maybe some sympathy, maybe some people telling similar stories, maybe some folks recommending their favorite brand of potato or store.
Here's what's not welcome: suggestions to grow my own potatoes, suggestions to *not eat* potatoes, etc. That's irritating

@TechConnectify even if the open source software does exactly what you need it to do and is free, if it is a large part of your workflow, it might be like asking someone to move cross country. Some people can't afford that. Similarly, your job might not give you option to switch living location or software tools.

I know people where a $500 licensing fee is trivial compared to time and cost to port other tools and past work. I know others where a $10 fee is unreasonable. Focusing just on cost or a single function of the software is myopic, potentially self-centered assuming others use software the same way.

To stick with house analogy, different houses have different prices, commute times, space, storage, etc. Maybe some one has specific mobility access requirements or space for a hobby. I've seen people inherit a house (it's basically free) and not move into.

I say that as someone who uses, advocates for and contributes to open source software.

@PlasmaGryphon Your perspective is refreshing. Thank you.

@TechConnectify @jztusk @rl_dane I think this thread may be genuinely one, if not the most, productive discussion I've seen come out of any open source evangelism thread, period.

At the very least, there's quite something neat about feeling one's own viewpoint and worries represented AND having the discussion resolve to a satisfying and measured conclusion.

I do sit on the technical side of the fence, and I am very much taking notes. Cheers!

@TechConnectify @neclimdul @DoubleA Yo are somewhat right. If the linux desktop people didn't hate eachother there would be a decent file explorer or maybe a common preview.app alternative :D Redundant work is just a bit frustrating to watch.

@9eurosyltbesucher I have been preaching that "there actually IS VALUE in there being a limited set of options - that forces people to be on the same page!" forever but nobody listens to me.

Instead, they make their forks, and everything continues to get worse.

I've wanted a "distro for normies" forever now and it's... just not happening. Same impulse is here on Fedi with the allergy to large instances.

@TechConnectify it is absolutely astounding to me how badly people treat you I your replies and I'm sorry that you have to deal with that.

@ajroach42 Thank you. It's nice to hear.

I figure the only way it's gonna get better is to keep talking about it, though - so I will.

@TechConnectify As a former "open source evangelist" I get where people are coming from, but you're right. Software, no matter how simple it may seem, is immensely complex, and therefore has countless points of failure that can arise when deviating from the norm. The people for whom the house analogy applies don't realise they're hurting their cause, to become popular enough that city counsel will no longer question their legitimacy and force them in turn to use designs that don't work for them.